Why Diesel is Anything but Jalop...

"Flavien Vidal" (flyingfrenchy) 01/30/2014 at 18:23 • Filed to: Or why Diesel Sucks...

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Diesel sucks. There you go, I said it. It sucks, plain and simple. For some reason though, diesel are extremely popular on this website. As a french person who lived for the past 10 years in North America, this is something I do not understand. What good do you see in a diesel car? I can understand the fun of a boxy wagon, the fun of an extremely ugly and crappy car or why miata is always the answer, but what's up with you and diesel?

My theory on the subject is that you guys might actually suffer of the "grass is greener over there" syndrom. You live in a society where gas cars ruled the world for decades and where a diesel sedan was seen as something rather unique to have. "Oh you have a Jetta TDI... nice!!". But you've never lived for many years, surrounded by vibrating old diesels and there awful noise/smell... You don't know what it is to spend your entire life shifting a crapbox at 4000rpm max or dealing with that guy in front of you and his black smoke coming out of his exhaust because the last time he actually accelerated over 2000rpm was in 1978.

Diesel cars are not all Audis A8 TDI or BMWs 550D, no. They are Renault Clios 1.3, Citroen C3s Picasso and Golfs/Polos/Jettas/you name it... (and yes, I know golfs, both my parents owned all of them, two each time... And I'm not talking about GTD or more powerful diesels either than can be somewhat fun to drive and with higher revving capabilities, but of the basic car you find everywhere, all the time).

All this along with the fact that the International Agency for Research on Cancer finally, in 2012, considered it as an important reason for cancers, thanks to the diesel particulate matter created by these oh-so-fantastic cars... Of course, particulates are not tested for now to consider whether or not the car you guys buy is "alright" for the environnement... So diesels are CLEAN and GREEN!!! Right... Let's not forget the high amount of nitrogen dioxide also created by these so clean diesels...

So please, Jalops of North America... Don't do the same mistake we did in France and in Europe in general... Keep diesels as far away from you as possible before it's too late... It's not fun, it pollutes and it makes you sick.

For Sweden > Flavien Vidal 01/30/2014 at 18:26

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Diesel = Bad

Turbo Diesel = :D

Nibby > Flavien Vidal 01/30/2014 at 18:28

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LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER THE SOUND OF MY TRUCK

Nah, but in all seriousness, I think here in the US there are many obsessed with hybrids and such so there are a bunch of people who would rather go diesel to get better mileage than hybrid. New diesel engines are also considerably faster and cleaner than older ones.

Joe_Limon > Flavien Vidal 01/30/2014 at 18:28

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Well... there aren't any marketable HCCI automobiles out there yet, so we shall make due with what we have been given.

Stef Schrader > Flavien Vidal 01/30/2014 at 18:29

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Oh, yeah—it's highly car-dependent. Ask us about 80s GM diesels—*cough*.

The luxury diesels are...mmm. Me gusta. I really rather like the idea of the 1 series diesel, though. That's one I need to go over and drive, I guess. TORQUES! Tooooooorques.

CAR_IS_MI > Flavien Vidal 01/30/2014 at 18:30

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Flavien Vidal > For Sweden 01/30/2014 at 18:30

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Nope... It does not even save it for me... Last one I ended up with was a 2011 Giulietta was very bad, but not as bad as a Golf TDI "Confortline"... Gosh that was slow... And boring... Made me wish I had a Geo Metro instead...

PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power > Flavien Vidal 01/30/2014 at 18:32

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ok, I grew up in Europe as well, and honestly, I like diesels a lot. sure, they're dirtier and slower than petrol cars, and sound like an anemic dishwasher, but there's just something about them that I love.

I learned how to drive on a beaten to shit (I'm talking not road legal, but still has plates beaten to shit here) 1990 golf MK2 diesel. This car had when it was new, 52 horsepower. It was fun though. why? because it pulled. The torque of a diesel engine, and how accessible it is, is what has made me love them. 5 170 pound swimmers, and 5 bags of stuff in the car? no problem! steep hill? That's what 2nd gear is for! Plus, this 24 year old relic got 53 (US MPG, mind you) combined. How do I know? we drove 100km's, and it used 4.2L of diesel.

That is why I love diesel, and it's ok if you don't everyone's got a right to an oppinion

Flavien Vidal > Nibby 01/30/2014 at 18:34

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That's where you are wrong when you think about newer diesel being clean... They just don't pollute the same way... as I said particulates are just as bad if not worse than "normal" engine pollution... It's just not tested. After over 30 years of having the french government pushing diesel with massive tax rebates, they now finally realize that it just pollutes "differently" and that it was a terrible sanitary choice for the country. "Clean" modern diesel still pollutes terribly like older diesel, just differently.

For Sweden > Flavien Vidal 01/30/2014 at 18:34

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I think your problem there was 105 horsepower from a 1.6L, not the diesel.

Milky > Flavien Vidal 01/30/2014 at 18:34

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Well a shitty engine in a shitbox isn't going to be great, thats obvious. But something like a Jetta TDI or diesel Grand Cherokee can give you great mileage for its class. Most of us love all things speedy and gas guzzle-y, but can understand the need for a practical DD.

Honestly according to that demographic thing floating around most of us are too young to remember murica's shitty diesel days, and we're not european so we don't know how slow in reality one of the cars you mentioned is.

Just something to think about.

CAR_IS_MI > Flavien Vidal 01/30/2014 at 18:35

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Flavien Vidal > For Sweden 01/30/2014 at 18:37

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Hell no... I get tons of fun out of lesser powered car that are not diesel. Diesel just makes slower cars duller and even more boring, that's all...

Nibby > Flavien Vidal 01/30/2014 at 18:37

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For Sweden > Flavien Vidal 01/30/2014 at 18:39

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Have you tried torque?

CAR_IS_MI > Flavien Vidal 01/30/2014 at 18:39

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HammerheadFistpunch > Flavien Vidal 01/30/2014 at 18:40

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lets clear a few things up.

1. Diesels save fuel; which saves money and the planet (we need to start thinking about GPM instead of MPG)

2. Diesel (in the us) are tier 2 bin 5 compliant which is basically SULEV and it no different, emissions wise, from a gasoline powered car with a SULEV rating. Euro ratings are starting to catch up.

3. Diesels nets the economy we crave, while maintaining the driving dynamics we love. Hybrids and other such technologies give us the economy as the expense of driving pleasure

4. To harp on the alternatives again; hybrids [batteries specifically) are dubiously environmental to start, so why go down that road at all?

5. We only want GOOD diesels, like we only want GOOD gas engines. No one wants a crap engine or crap car here, that's just not jalop... full stop

There is a place for diesel engines just like there is a place for high revving NA, or high power turbo. What you are saying is:

I can't believe you guys like music, don't you remember the 80's? You can't let a terrible past [the 80's were terrible for music, mostly...deal with it] spoil you on a bright future [yes, today's music isn't much better...mostly]

There is a little "grass is greener" only because there are great applications for diesel that would save us money, would help our dependence on oil, and give us the characteristics we desire in a power-plant that...for political reasons...are denied us. I guess it doesn't help that the federally mandated alternatives are terrible at best.

Flavien Vidal > Milky 01/30/2014 at 18:41

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30mpg? I get that kind of highway mileage out my 5.7L LT1 engine in my '95 corvette... Maybe just a manual gearbox and a long 6th gear could do the trick for gas consumption no?

And a F150 with a 100 gallons tank can easily achieve that range too... Put a big tank in a car, it will go far, whatever the car.

desertdog5051 > Flavien Vidal 01/30/2014 at 18:48

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Diesel pickups and big trucks I agree with. The fuel mileage on something like a VW TDI is impressive. The problem lies in vehicles newer than 2012 (I believe) to meet Tier 4 emission standards. They require expensive injected fluids and periodic cleaning of the catalyst, which is done by the car, initially, but but wears out and stops functioning after a certain amount of time. (warranty period?) Plus the cost of diesel fuel in the US is very high. Usually about 80-90 more cents a gallon. I will stay with my gas powered vehicles for the present.

I_AmDeath > Nibby 01/30/2014 at 18:48

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Black smoke is wasted power though.

Flavien Vidal > HammerheadFistpunch 01/30/2014 at 18:50

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SULEV cares and deal solely with the creation of parrticulate matter, and totaly ignores the creation of NO2 that these very same anti-particulate filters created... NO2 generates cardiovascular diseases and respiratory problems (asthma)

For Sweden > Flavien Vidal 01/30/2014 at 18:50

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Corvette != Grand Cherokee

M54B30 > Flavien Vidal 01/30/2014 at 18:52

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I like diesels for the torque, range, and engine longevity. I would've bought a 530d instead of 530i if they had it here, the E39 530d was fantastic

HammerheadFistpunch > Flavien Vidal 01/30/2014 at 18:54

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...Thats not how that works. Besides you realize the GC ecodiesel has an 8 speed already right? Same with the v6 model that gets 17 city and 24 highway, has about 100 ft-lbs less and a lower towing rating. To quote a prominent GM engineer when asked about technology in Gas engines: That stuff [direct injection, turbocharging, variable valve timing/lift] is used up, from here on out its going to be hard work for small gains. Also, 100 gallon tank? are you serious? That's 630 lbs of fuel! and where do you put a 100 gallon tank? The GC tank is only 24 gallons. I routinely get 600+ miles out of my 14.5 gallon tank on my JSW TDI.

The facts are clear: diesels burn leaner with fuel that's more energy dense...

Flavien Vidal > For Sweden 01/30/2014 at 18:55

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Then a Renault Espace from 2005 with a 3.5L V6 if you prefer? That's the kind of highway mpg that it could get back in 2005...

For Sweden > Flavien Vidal 01/30/2014 at 18:58

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I didn't realize the Espace was an SUV with a tow rating.

This also says the Espace in question achieved 23 British miles per gallon, which is equal to 19 American miles per gallon.

HammerheadFistpunch > Flavien Vidal 01/30/2014 at 19:00

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nope.

Tier 2 bin 5 regulates ALL emissions to the same standard. btw, Tier 2 bin 5 is about as tough as standards as there is without going into PZEV and ZEV categories. When I drive my TDI around on bad air days where I live, I'm emitting fewer Oxides of nitrogen, and particulate matter than is in the air I'm driving through. Given my DPF, i actually CLEAN the air when I drive.

Milky > Flavien Vidal 01/30/2014 at 19:04

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Vette's gas mileage is old news. http://jalopnik.com/cars-that-get-…

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

I can't find it now, but someone in a C6 broke some record for mileage gains over advertised too.

Very different worlds.

Flavien Vidal > For Sweden 01/30/2014 at 19:05

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I didn't realize Jeeps were used outside of cities or to tow anything...

V6 Espace were of similar size if not bigger, with 250hp and 250lb/ft of torque... More than a Grand Cheerokee of the same year... Yeah it did not have 4WD but it's very capable of "towing" anything...

briannutter1 > Flavien Vidal 01/30/2014 at 19:07

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Having lived in China, I can tell you that the real issue with their pollution is milions of diesel trucks ferrying shit back and forth.....not coal powerplants. They dont talk about it because it directly impacts commerce. Nice new diesels become shitty old ones. Direct injection gasoline is the way of the future. A melding of both technologies.

For Sweden > Flavien Vidal 01/30/2014 at 19:10

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That doesn't explain the discrepancy between 19 MPG and 30 MPG.

Flavien Vidal > HammerheadFistpunch 01/30/2014 at 19:13

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My bad then... :)

Nonetheless, I see no Diesel SULEV vehicule in here... But is it me of is the F-350 considered a SULEV vehicule according to this list?

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/carpool…

HammerheadFistpunch > Flavien Vidal 01/30/2014 at 19:16

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That's for carpool usage and certainly not a representative guide. The facts remain that ALL light duty/passenger vehicles with diesel in the US are Tier II bin 5. 100% That's why they are so expensive to bring here.

Luc - The Acadian Oppo > Flavien Vidal 01/30/2014 at 19:16

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I'm from Canada and I love diesels but I don't think I would buy one and heres why.

in Canada Diesel Fuel is between $0.25-$0.30 more per liter($0.95-$1.13 per gallon)

the MPG difference does not even make up for the difference in fuel cost.

ex: a gas jetta gets 35 mpg and a tdi gets 42 mpg. the TDI gets 17% better MPG but fuel is 30% more expensive.

which makes the gas Jetta cheaper per mile than the TDI and also don't for get the $2500 premium you pay to get the diesel engine in the first place.

when Diesel was $0.15-0.20$ less than gas it made sense but now it is totally pointless.

Flavien Vidal > HammerheadFistpunch 01/30/2014 at 19:18

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Damn you're fast to answer :)

The 2014 F-350 Pickup is considered a SULEV according to this list... Is it.... a joke??

TheOnelectronic > Flavien Vidal 01/30/2014 at 19:20

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Because BOOST

Flavien Vidal > For Sweden 01/30/2014 at 19:21

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We are talking HWY MPG here, not average... 8L/100km (29.4mpg) was what my grand father was getting in his...

HammerheadFistpunch > Flavien Vidal 01/30/2014 at 19:22

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If you notice, the manufacture isn't Ford, its Impco technologies . Its a CNG conversion.

puddler > Flavien Vidal 01/30/2014 at 19:25

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there isn't much better in life than driving a slow car fast.

Flavien Vidal > HammerheadFistpunch 01/30/2014 at 19:25

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oh ok ok, got stucked on the F350 thing :)

Thanks for the precision

Tekamul > HammerheadFistpunch 01/30/2014 at 19:32

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I have a question with regards to point 1.

Since you can only get about 10 gallons of diesel from a barrel of crude, and you can get 19 gallons of gasoline, (varies up to 10% either way based on where the crude is sourced) isn't gas greener in a barrels sucked from the ground sense? Does the energy required to run rigs and refineries per barrel count in the overall environmental impact?

GhostZ > Flavien Vidal 01/30/2014 at 19:45

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Do you use the ellipses so much because you forgot what a period does, or is it possibly some form of nervous tic?

Flavien Vidal > GhostZ 01/30/2014 at 19:46

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It's more of a nervous tic indeed :)

Not the first time I'm told about it don't worry.

GhostZ > Flavien Vidal 01/30/2014 at 19:50

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If you want to beat down grammer nazis, use 4 periods after a sentence instead of 3. That way when they say "you can't end a sentence with an ellipsis!" you can show them that you can if you use 4!

A famous example was the end of the Title crawl for Star Wars, which ends in 4 dot ellipsis, which is the correct way to do it.

Flavien Vidal > GhostZ 01/30/2014 at 20:08

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haha, thanks for the tip ;)

TwoFortified > Flavien Vidal 01/30/2014 at 20:19

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For the sake of the jimmies!

(I don't like diesels either. That doesn't mean I bring it up. I also think the Miata is an anemic little car and that Volvos look stupid)

Textured Soy Protein > Flavien Vidal 01/30/2014 at 20:46

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Unlike in Europe where gasoline (petrol) is more highly taxed than diesel fuel, in the US, diesel fuel is taxed at $0.06/gallon more than gasoline. Plus there is much more over-the-road trucking here in the US compared to Europe so that drives the cost of diesel up as well.

So while diesel cars are slowly becoming more popular in the US, and some companies (mostly VW/Audi) are making a concerted effort to advertise their diesel cars, they're still going to be a niche product as long as diesel fuel continues to be more expensive than gasoline.

TheD0k_2many toys 2little time > I_AmDeath 01/30/2014 at 21:52

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Maybe on bro trucks with tuners. I like to rebuke that claim though.

I_AmDeath > TheD0k_2many toys 2little time 01/30/2014 at 22:05

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On those if I remember correctly its basically done to cool the cylinders. Plus its kind of a bitch to get enough air for those. How come Banks has a S10 that runs 8s without any smoke?

TheD0k_2many toys 2little time > I_AmDeath 01/30/2014 at 22:16

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Yes with any combustion engine the more fuel helps cool.

Even gassers will smoke some when they are making huge power. Its just a by-product of trying to shove as much fuel in as possible

I_AmDeath > TheD0k_2many toys 2little time 01/30/2014 at 22:21

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A lot of guys with computer tuners just dump fuel and more fuel and more fuel into there fucking shit though on the street.

JasonStern911 > Flavien Vidal 01/31/2014 at 01:50

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Diesels are great because they produce massive amounts of torque at low RPMs. As much as everyone loves track cars, a majority of driving is done in speed limit enforced stop-go-stop-go or freeway traffic. It's like dating a woman that cooks and cleans versus dating a model. Are you having more fun with the model when you can enjoy her? Sure, but that's not how most of the time is spent.

FelixScout > Tekamul 01/31/2014 at 01:54

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Out of curiosity, where did you get the information on the amount of refined product versus raw product?

Volksandmopar > Flavien Vidal 01/31/2014 at 01:54

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I'm sorry I cant hear you over the sound of all this diesel goodness.

Volksandmopar > Flavien Vidal 01/31/2014 at 01:55

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Slow you say?

Flavien Vidal > Volksandmopar 01/31/2014 at 08:33

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Nope, not fun I said :)

And again, I'm not talking about this kind of thing... not how I get my fun in a car, but I get it, it can be fun to some people...

Tekamul > FelixScout 01/31/2014 at 09:00

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From the U.S. Energy Information Administration , a branch of the USDOE. They are responsible for forecasting, monitoring and educating about refineries, importation, exportation and usage.

crowmolly > desertdog5051 01/31/2014 at 19:07

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Exhaust fluid (I can't believe I can type that in a serious convo) isn't that expensive. $50 a fill for 10,000 miles or so.

As for fuel cost, near me Shell premium diesel is 3.95 and regular 87 is 3.21. A 29% difference. To and from work my average is 43-46 with winter fuel vs. the 23-26 I was getting in my previous car. Even though the fuel is 29% more expensive I am getting 46% better fuel mileage. My drive is basically all highway each day. If it wasn't I would not have gone diesel as the returns would not be as great.

I get the added cleaning costs, etc but diesel engines typically last a bit longer so I would consider that to be a wash.

merkyg > Flavien Vidal 01/31/2014 at 20:00

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Good point about the weak euro diesels... I had the misfortune of riding in a bio-diesel Clio a few times, it was laughably weak and if you didn't roll the windows up before reversing, it stank.

I say that, but...this is what I'm planning on buying as my next car:

...and I'm sure as hell not going for a petrol version :)

PardonMyFlemish16 > Flavien Vidal 02/01/2014 at 00:17

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I read somewhere that Hyundai is readying a sparkless gasoline engine. It's really complicated though. Twincharged and only makes 180HP out of 1.8L

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > Tekamul 02/01/2014 at 14:36

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That's a good question. I do not have the answer.

I would guess that it's probably a wash at this point, since diesel is more energy-dense, it leads to better mileage, for the most part, than gasoline.

However, gasoline engines are catching up rapidly, and we are almost at the point where gasoline engines will be compression-ignition just like diesels. At that point, I would say that gasoline would indeed be the best option.

Dunnik > Flavien Vidal 02/01/2014 at 16:12

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I think part of the reason is, for the longest time the only diesels in the NA market were European. And if you consider that "European" often means "sophisticated" to a NA audience, diesel = sophisticated.

Also, the Prius Smugness Factor. Even though diesels are, in fact, more polluting than gasoline, it does have more energy, allowing you to consume less of it, letting you think that it is good for the environment.

But now that TDI is on all the things? I think we will slowly lose our love affair with diesel (while keeping our love of beaters, wagons, Miata, manuals, etc.).

ihbase > Flavien Vidal 02/02/2014 at 01:41

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It does not sound like you have even driven a modern US-spec diesel. Drive one, then talk to us about your fear of smoke and particulates. Your comments seem ignorant of modern EGR, SCR and carbon filtration systems. -Michael

FelixScout > Tekamul 02/03/2014 at 00:47

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Thank you for that information.

Looking at this site and others it seems that one gets both gasoline and diesel (plus other products) from the same drum of crude. So it's not like it's an either/or situation but one where you do one level of refining and you get diesel and leftovers and then you do second level of refining and get gasoline and another batch of leftovers. Further, from this paper it seems that diesel production is about 3% more efficient than gasoline with this site saying that diesel is about 15% more energy dense than gasoline.

If this is relatively true there is more at play than how much one gets from a barrel of crude but how much energy use is needed to make it and relative energy density.

Alex87f > Flavien Vidal 02/07/2014 at 04:51

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FINALLY there's someone to say this.

Thanks. Thanks a million times.

For some reason, the Jalopnik viewership seems to be convinced that diesel is an absolute must and is fantastic. I'm French. I currently live in Belgium. Two countries where 70% of new cars sold are diesels and I am sick of it. Not only are they bad from an environmental standpoint -in addition to being an auditive and olfactory nuisance- , they also aren't cheap to own at all, and they pretty much kill driver enjoyment.
Is it funny to get your ass kicked when the boost builds up? Yeah, it is. Is this very quickly offset by shitty noise, lag and narrow powerbands? Yes. Absolutely.

Heck, Europeans pretty much invented modern diesels and we're now backing away from them, mainly because of the difficulty to break even on the cost premium -with diesel being cheaper than gas..-, and the environmental issues they generate.

Yet despite all of this, Jalops seem to keep on thinking diesels are the absolute top of motoring. I recently posted about the low economic interest of the latest diesel Ram , but was told that money isn't the point.
I talked about the WHO and other alarming reports regarding diesel's health & safety effects and was always told that "American diesels are clean", which quite frankly sounds a bit like "you've done diesels for 40 years but we know better".
Tried mentioning the narrow powerband and shitty noise and was always told that diesels are "cool" and "have torque".

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Heck! I even posted about a marine-diesel-powered Ferrari and was told it's a cool swap. Not the point I was trying to prove.

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Jalopnik's second-ultimate-car (the brown VW Jetta Wagon TDI) is the car that exacly no one dreams of in Europe. We call that the sales rep car.

I'm really lost here, no matter what you do, diesels are always seen as cool, it's like talking to a teenager who's convinced he knows better. Very saddening indeed.

Flavien Vidal > Alex87f 02/07/2014 at 08:27

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Thanks!

Gotta love the "American diesels are clean" thing lol. Good thing is that I'm 29 years old and if this whole diesel thing picks up in the US and becomes a freaking mess as it is right now in Europe (and it will), I will still be alive to say "I told you so!!" :)

Alex87f > Flavien Vidal 02/07/2014 at 11:21

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Yeah, that's the next part of the "talking to a teenager" metaphor I was using. It's going to end badly anyway, and you'll be able to be the guy who says "I don't want to say I told you so.... but I told you so".

Alex87f > M54B30 02/07/2014 at 11:31

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That's a long gone thing. Modern diesels have about a million expensive and fragile accessories, that are just waiting to break down: particle filter? check. 1 500 bar injectors? check. Turbo? check. EGR? Check.

And when they do, the repair bill always is rather funny to look at, provided you're not the sad owner.

The E39 530d was an all right car, up until it decided to eat its intake valves, which killed the engine. Sames goes for the turbos.

As for the range feature, I can't see how it can be worth putting up with a diesel just so that you refuel every 10 days rather than 8.

The torque thing? Yeah. A turbocharged gas engine does the same thing just as well, with a wider powerband.

dinobot666 > Flavien Vidal 02/07/2014 at 12:08

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You typically don't drive the same larger, heavier vehicles that we do in North America, vehicles that could benefit greatly from the low end torque that a diesel offers.

puddler > Flavien Vidal 02/07/2014 at 12:25

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i want a 2 stroke detroit. and you can't stop me.

gophur > desertdog5051 02/07/2014 at 12:33

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I always thought about the fuel price as well as being a detriment but the price in Dallas between premium and diesel is 2.83 vs 3.29 or ~15% while the mpg hwy is 33 vs 44 between the TDI and GTI with both getting close performance. 33% better fuel economy seems like a pretty good deal over 12kmi a year.

My match coprocessor is rusty this morning so I'l skip the full workout but I'm starting to think about a diesel as an option for the first time ever.

This is moot if you're comparing regular unleaded but none of my cars call for the stuff.

desertdog5051 > gophur 02/07/2014 at 14:48

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That's not a bad spread. Here regular gas is $2.98 and diesel is $3.79. That was yesterday.

biturboism, the cult > Flavien Vidal 02/07/2014 at 15:20

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Why I hate diesels, even manuals:

1) No high revs and even if you go there there is no gain

2) Narrow turbo band = narrow fun band

3) Turbo lag and ultra excremental throttle response

=> you can't do this:

(you can try, but there is no use) => not driver's car => No thanks.

Is it Jalop?

Some cars are worsened further than they already were by adding a diesel:

My father drives a "through the roof jalop points" diesel C4 (new, no cup holders because of ashtrays and french diesel ~estate) and fuck, it's depressingly mundane. I also drove a Golf 6 2.0 TDI DSG for a while and apart from the molding seems on the foamy dash giving me eye cancer, all I could feel was torque spikes, 0 steering feel and 1.1 sec of throttle lag.

Yuck.

Some, however have a quirky charakcter and the diesel complemnts them - Mazda 6 Estate (FAP- FAP) and Citroen DS5 FAP (FAP - FAP indeed). They will never be sports cars, but cars you can relax on the highway on 1200 RPM in 6th for hours and then it's not completely illogical. I can see the appeal, I'm just never substituting throttle response and revs for torque and mushiness.

jpunk > Flavien Vidal 02/10/2014 at 10:56

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Between all the straight pipes, smoky burnouts, smoky drifting, and huge trucks rollin' coal... Jalops don't really give a damn about this "air quality" thing.

Besides, we're not going to get beaten up old diesel shitboxes here... it's going to be TDIs and the like with angel farts for exhaust.

Awedgar > Flavien Vidal 02/24/2014 at 15:41

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Faut leur faire comprendre! Bien dit mec

Flavien Vidal > Awedgar 02/24/2014 at 15:46

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Ouai c'est pas gagné quand meme... Avec leur foutu "diesel americain que le notre il est propre" d'argumentaire a la con, on peut juste esperer que ca ne sorte pas de France :)

L'herbe est toujours plus verte ailleurs, mais ils ont vraiment aucune idée de ce dans quoi ils se lancent avec ce foutu diesel de merde :)

Awedgar > Flavien Vidal 02/24/2014 at 16:17

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C'est clair, faut leur envoyer quelques AX diesel ou une 308 hdi et ce sera rectifié ^^

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Flavien Vidal 09/21/2015 at 09:55

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It really depends, some diesels are excellent. A friend of mine has a 118d and it’s smooth, torquey and doesnt mind a few revs. Some other diesels kind of suck though.

Flavien Vidal > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 09/21/2015 at 10:00

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Haven’t tried it... My point is mostly that I can’t stay more than a few days in a row in Paris without having asthma thanks to diesel cars everywhere. And thousands of people are like me Cars are on average 8 years old in Paris... They were sold as clean diesel and still years after years it keeps on getting worse.

So yes diesel sucks.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Flavien Vidal 09/21/2015 at 10:03

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A good diesel is nice and torquey.

I like the noise of a good diesel.

Not all diesels are created equally in regards to smell.

Over here, diesels tend to be a premium product rather than an economy one.

Also, diesels here are heavily associated with either powerful pickups or the (great, imo) VAG diesels, as far as the general public is concerned. Therefore a crappy diesel in a base model won’t sell well. The only ones that will make it will have to have good engines.

CalzoneGolem > Flavien Vidal 09/21/2015 at 10:06

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I don’t like how diesels sound or smell.

Flavien Vidal > CalzoneGolem 09/21/2015 at 10:08

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It’s economical. That’s the only reason it exists. Not fun, not healthy, not “cool” or worth drooling onto. Economical.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Flavien Vidal 09/21/2015 at 10:08

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I do have to agree with you there actually. When I go to London I can barely breathe, and I don’t even have asthma the air is just that bad. It’s mostly the black cabs causing problems there.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Flavien Vidal 09/21/2015 at 10:10

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Imperial Gallon vs US Gallon, no? Besides, the 'vette is lighter.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Milky 09/21/2015 at 10:12

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Also, given diesel history over here, it's unlikely a bad diesel would be tolerated. It'd soon be send back where it came from...

Flavien Vidal > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 09/21/2015 at 10:13

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Imagine me, who has controllable asthma, in the middle of summer in Paris when is 36 degrees outside. Honestly unbearable. And France is worse than the UK as France pushes the sales of diesel cars by taxing diesel less... France is one of the only country where diesel is less expensive than gasoline at the pump despite the fact that it costs more to produce

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Alex87f 09/21/2015 at 10:27

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You get different diesels than us. Euro diesels tend to be the bottom of the line vehicles. Here they tend to be the top.

Emissions reg’s (particulates included) for diesels are tougher over here.

Don’t forget what most diesels tend to be over here, either... TDV8’s in pickups. And no, there is no “narrow power band” on those. Ass, meet seat. Hard. The VAG TDI’s are pretty good, too...

To think of it another way, picture a hybrid. They are all the same. Right? Soul-sucking, dreary, pieces of... Oh wait, there are currently three hybrid supercars that will eat anything that came before, we have a 10.2 second 1/4 mile electric car, and so on. What I’m saying is this. In Europe perhaps, the diesel is seen as what you buy just for basic, efficient transportation, with all the fun sucked out of it. Over here, diesels are high end. An approaching diesel rattle and wildly spooling turbo isn’t associated with a boring tight-wad, it’s associated with power and something interesting.

Also observe the North American history of diesels... pretty rubbish. There's a reason the only diesels available in recent years have been good. A bad diesel is getting chucked right back across whatever pond it came across.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Flavien Vidal 09/21/2015 at 10:30

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Just from my own person observations on here, Euros tend not to appreciate kidney-punch torque quite as much as NA-ers. They seem to prefer revvy power. Bearing that observation in mind, I can understand why you wouldn't enjoy diesel. Then, by reputation, many Euro diesels don't even have that...

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Flavien Vidal 09/21/2015 at 10:30

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I just realized this was from 2014... sowwy

Flavien Vidal > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 09/21/2015 at 10:31

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meh it’s OK I still see replies lol

Raymundo > HammerheadFistpunch 09/21/2015 at 10:51

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Maybe. What year is your TDI?

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Flavien Vidal 09/21/2015 at 10:54

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Actually currently diesel is cheaper here too at the moment, not by much though. Road tax favours diesels heavily too. My 1.3 turbo diesel Panda from 2005: £30 a year, my tiny 1.2 2010 Twingo: £110.

But yeah I can imagine that sucks pretty bad, particulate matter is a huge problem.

JustAnotherG6 > HammerheadFistpunch 09/21/2015 at 11:04

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*psst* here, I FTFY:

I can’t believe you guys like music, don’t you remember the 80’s Disco? You can’t let a terrible past [ the 80’s were Disco was terrible for music, mostly...deal with it] spoil you on a bright future [yes, today’s music isn’t much better...mostly]

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > Stef Schrader 09/21/2015 at 12:29

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But you would gladly have a diesel because racecar tow boat.

They have their uses. Like the M550d...

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > Flavien Vidal 09/21/2015 at 13:08

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Post 2005 light diesel vehicles have to meet EPA Tier 2 standards. The holy grail is to get to Bin 5, which has the strictest standard at 50,000 miles. The higher bins have higher limits, but the manufacturer still has to meet their fleet standard for emissions (which is the same as the Bin 5 standard).

Post 2008, Heavy Light Duty Truck diesels (read: Silverado 2500/3500, Ram 2500/3500, Ford F250/F350) have to meet at least Tier 2 Bin 8. The difference in NOx emissions between Bin 8 and Bin 5 for the 50,000 mile standard is .09g/mi. That’s a smaller jump than the transitional Bins in Tier 2 (for 2006-2008 trucks), where the difference between Bin 10 and Bin 8 is 0.26g/mi, and the transitional Bin 11 wasn’t even tested for 50,000 mile compliance (Bin 11 was a leftover for existing MY2005 engines that were originally under Heavy Duty On-Road Diesel standards to be certified while being upgraded for PM2.5 and NOx compliance)

Diesels have their place. As truck engines, they are excellent. For long commutes, they are also good. We just want good diesels, and not sub par diesels. The myopia of the French government in only focusing on CO2 emissions led to the implementation of a policy that was frightfully well carried out over the last three decades. Hopefully, Brussels will figure this out before too long.

Flavien Vidal > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 09/21/2015 at 22:03

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You buy Jettas and Golf TDI just like in France or anywhere else... In the US you only get bigger engines that pollute more, while in France/Europe we get all the avaialble configurations. Diesel technology is mastered by Peugeot, Renault and so on, a lot better than by any other car manufacturer. Europe doesn’t get the “bottom of the line” in Diesel, it gets EVERYTHING in Diesel.

Diesel is associated with towing power. Torque is fun when combined with HPs. Torque alone at very low RPM that custs as soon as you reach 4000rpm is boring. Sure it’s nice on the freeway to be able to have long 5th gear pulls, but other than that, it’s useless.

The only reason it sells is because it’s the most economical way of owning a car today.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Flavien Vidal 09/21/2015 at 22:24

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Dunno on the first point... you don’t like them, we do, that suggests to me that something is different.

See HammerheadFistpunch’s comment on here. Diesels are more tightly regulated here.

Torque and HP ar not mutually exclusive. HP is equal to torque divided by 5252, multiplied by the RPM at which the torque was produced. There’s nothing wrong with the output dropping off after 4000 RPM. All your torque come in well be that, typically starting to reach effective levels at about 700 RPM. This also has th nice result of having a relatively flat power curve. If the diesels you have can’t boast that (looking at you subaru), there is almost no chance of them ever taking off over here.

Once again, different markets. For you, they may be more economical. Here, they aren’t. They ar typically the most expensive models, and diesel an gas prices are so close it make almost no difference (based on the length of time most people keep their cars). The only reason they sell (not counting pickups, those do offer a big enough gap when the the actually being used as designed) is because some people prefer the kidney punch low end torque of the diesel.

Flavien Vidal > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 09/21/2015 at 23:00

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My point was that revving a car “all the way” until 4000rpm before shifting is NOT fun. not to mention that all the sensorial enjoyment of revving a gasoline car is also gone. All you get is acceleration... If that’s all you’re lookingfor, great, but to me driving a car and enjoying it goes beyond that.

Also diesel are bought as economy cars in the US for the past 5 years or so... I agree it wasn’t the case before that, but it is today. It IS about economy. Car and driver tested the 2014 A8 with the 3.0L TDI and 3.0L gas. They registered 32mpg average with the diesel, while the gas version only reached 21mpg. And similar differences occur with any other daily driver that are not pick up trucks. People don’t buy a GTD instead of a GTI for “sport capabilities” or fun, they are making a compromise. The 2014 Golf GTD gets close to 50mpg... while the GTI of the same year gets 30mpg... That’s if you’re careful of course.

And what do you think are the most expensive models in Europe?? Diesel of course. They are more complicated to build and therefore cost more. The Golf GTD is something like 2000$ more expensive than the GTI. it’s everywhere the same.

But this extra cost when buying the car is quickly forgotten as they use a lot less fuel.

Why do you think daily drivers with diesel engines started showing up in the US 5 years ago?? Do you remember the price of gasoline 4 to 5 years ago?

Diesel are arriving (or rather were arriving lol) in the US market because of the sudden rise of gas prices. It’s a lot more economical and that’s the only reason people buy them. With gas prices going back down along with this scandal, it’s not tomorrow that you will see Diesel cars having a massive market share in the states.

And that’s a good thing.

Diesel in Europe are indeed allowed to be more polluant. That doesn,t mean diesel in the US is any better though... As you saw, they just cheat instead lol

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Flavien Vidal 09/22/2015 at 10:17

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The revving the nuts off to go places IS gone, I’ll grant you that... But I’ve been searching for a way to convey the sensation of diesel and why I like it for the last couple comments without really hitting on one, but this should do it. One of the sensations I love about my truck is the fact that it can just hang onto a gear. Put your foot down a bit, no kickdown or wild surge of revs, it just digs in and goes. It isn’t the fastest vehicle on the road, but just having the torque reserve that I can just rumble around at 11-1300RPM I find awesome. That’s the result of a bigger engine. There isn’t really much in small cars that gives you that sensation. Turbo gassers do get close, but usually even they’re more rev happy than torquey (yes there are exceptions, but they cost the same as the diesels with worse mileage). Diesels are the only thing that (in my personal experience) matches that big-engine feel.

Those who are buying diesel for economy reasons are:

a) Not doing their homework. It’ll take a lot of driving to make up that price difference.

b) Do a LOT of driving.

c) Plan to run the vehicle into the ground.

For example. Here, now, diesel is about the same price as 87 octane fuel. Sometimes less, somtimes more. Always within a couple cents, and in the long run it’ll average the same. I know you’ll point out what about turbo gassers that need premium? I will admit that diesel will have an economic advantage. But then again, many new turbo motors are going to direct injection, which doesn’t require premium. Anyway, back to the example... let’s start with the 30 vs. 50 mpg from your comment. Let’s say each vehicle has 10 gallons of fuel. That’s 500 miles of range vs 300. 87 octane here is now about $1/Litre (cheaper in the US, but for the purposes of this it doesn’t matter, it’s still close to diesel down there). That works out to $45 for that 10 gallons. The diesel is costing about 9 cents a mile, the gasser about 15, a difference of 6 cents. Aparently, the average diesel over here is about $5000 more than the gas version. In that case, it would take 83000 miles before you’d break even, or about 6 and a half years. In your example, where the diesel is $2000 more than the gas, it would still take about 3 years. In a time where more an more people are swaping their cars in sooner and sooner, most people won’t see an economic benefit from diesel.

The only reason that remains (again, leaving trucks out of it) is that they happen to like the “feel" of the diesel.

On the last point, wait a bit. Just because VW cheated doesn't mean everone did. Now that they've been discovered, there will be investivation into everybody else. If they've been cheating too, I concede the point, but the fact of the matter is, it's hard to spot a diesel now. They are quiet and don't smell bad. Read into that what you will.

Flavien Vidal > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 09/22/2015 at 11:34

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Which is why I explained earlier that now that the economical advantage of diesel is gone, diesel will stop its progress in the US.

Now do the same calculation with gas at 1.5$ per liter, all that combined with a much stronger than now Canadian dollar. This is why diesel arrived in the US at a time when gas was expensive. It was economical. People would pay their credit 200$ per month instead of 170$, sure, but in the end they would save 30 or 40$ per month on fuel (at the time) and, which you forgot to mention, they were buying a car that would sale 3 or 4000$ more than their gasoline counterpart after a few years

People chose it for economy and rising gas prices... Now it will die out thanks to this scandal and low gas prices, which is why it was solely here for economical reasons.

And the only reasons why it is hard to spot is because you can’t see participate matter and NOx lol... Its noise is still awful and I’ll notice a brand new diesel BMW from quite far just listening to its awful noise :)

And as I said also, I’ll give you the cool 5th gear pull on the freeway... But I don’t drive a car for that personally.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Flavien Vidal 09/22/2015 at 12:04

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On the contrary, it’s still making progress. This was until recently the land of big engines. I guess in some ways it still is. Like I said, it gives a big engine feel. Diesel has always been here in some measure, but the crap ones were killed off.

Doesn’t make a difference, anyways, diesel prices follow gas prices.

By “hard to spot” I mean “I barely notice”. Those modern ones I have encountered are quiet. And not smokey.

Nah, it’s OK. If we all liked the same things it would be pretty boring :)

Now, I’m not an engineer, but this reminds me of something...

Arguing with an engineer is like mud-wrestling a pig, after a couple of hours you realize the pig likes it